In this episode of Social Sleuth, I sit down with Eli James, an artist, to dive into the philosophical aspects of art and AI. Because AI is a multifaceted topic, with many critiques circulating the web, we discuss the emotional and personal dimensions of generative AI - rather than rehashing the trending grievnaces.
Eli James is a multi-medium artist, creating digital art & paintings, mastering digital and classical music, and dabbling in world-building. Highly attuned to the artist network, giving insight into the interpersonal challenges of the AI art boom, for himself and his peers.
Eli emphasizes the importance of the artistic journey, the community’s response to AI, and the need for artists to adapt while maintaining their unique voices. Sharing insights on copyright issues, the role of AI as a tool versus a replacement, and the collective efforts of artists to combat the challenges posed by AI - where humaness is the biggest player.
I encourage AI enthusiasts and critics alike to listen to this episode with an open mind. AI, “a tool of the future”, comes with ethical dilemmas that need attention. Burying our head in the sand won’t make it go away.
Check out some of Eli’s creations here -> Faxanudu on Spotify
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Full Transcript
Kenny (00:19.502)
I’m your host Kenny and you’re listening to Social Sleuth. Today I will be sitting down with Eli, a multimedia artist, to talk about AI. This episode isn’t in full hate of AI, but rather a conversation about generative AI and its current and future challenges in the art and creative industries. Let’s get into it. Welcome Eli. Thank you for coming on Social Sleuth.
Eli (00:45.39)
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Kenny (00:47.518)
And to get things started right out the gate, would you mind introducing yourself?
Eli (00:51.438)
Yeah, my name is Eli James. I was put on this planet as an artist first and a human second. Kind of jack-of-all-trades artist. I like to paint and draw and write music, play piano. But yeah, for the most part, there’s always a creative drive in me. But always experimenting, you know.
Kenny (01:16.462)
Absolutely. Thanks for sharing. To kind of break that third wall, Eli and I work together. So we chat quite a bit throughout our work days. And one of the topics is artificial intelligence or AI. And I thought, because we talked about it and Eli’s background, you would be a good person to ask sort of about that more philosophical and ethical side that often doesn’t get talked about.
Eli (01:42.156)
Yeah, because a lot of the topics regarding AI, most of it’s already covered. And I think as an artist myself, I want to know the purpose of things, just the ethics and morals of something big going on, you And it does apply to me and my fellow artists, friends and stuff. So it’s a... They’re not of a...
Kenny (02:08.632)
And there’s no way for us to cover it all. So AI has come up across a few of my episodes in little tiny bits. But it’s not something I fully unpacked despite its very large presence, like you said, it’s kind of this big beast of a topic. I think it’s a major player in shaping of internet culture and kind of how we move through life and how it’s going to impact our future. But when we’re...
Thinking of artificial intelligence, what do you think of? have artificial intelligence and machine learning and it’s sort of embedded in a lot of hidden ways. And then you have the more current topic of art and AI and the sort of generative model.
Eli (02:44.088)
See, in terms of AI, not generative AI.
AI always reminds me of one of my favorite movies, Terminator 2, Judgment Day, great movie. But over the years, rewatching it, it’s kind of slowly becoming a reality. It makes the movie that much more powerful. But it’s, now it’s, it’s like the, to me, it’s like the perfect visual.
what might happen in the next decade. All this AI stuff that’s been just exploding and rapidly learning and replacing itself with new versions of AI. It’s like, you have to take a few steps back and look at the bigger picture, not just on an individual level. In terms of generative AI, it’s a neat topic because it’s relatively new.
Kenny (03:50.862)
Obviously, even though we can sit here and talk about how AI is scary and it’s going to be the Terminator 2, the Freaky and this all-powerful, all-knowing beast, people do use it.
I’ve definitely played with it. I know that this recording program uses it for part of the editing process. It’s not generative in nature, but it’s still doing its backstage computer stuff. I’m still figuring out how I feel ethically about that, but right now it’s working for me.
Eli (04:20.238)
As long as they’re just using it as a tool, not like a replacement, there’s got to be some form of work involved. Sometimes work is fun.
Kenny (04:37.902)
that’s part of the craft.
Eli (04:39.0)
Yeah, it’s part of the journey.
Kenny (04:41.23)
Exactly. It’s not the destination, it’s the journey. Exactly. My point being is that lots of people are using it. So we’re feeding it all this new information. Yeah. So it’s getting stronger, it’s getting better. And kind of where my concern comes in is how it’s sold. It’s sold to the user as it’s convenient, it’s efficient. It’ll basically do a better job than you could ever do. And I just wonder, what do you make of how this
really a product is being sold, especially when it bridges into the art space of, I’m assuming you had to go through all of those and probably still every day, the challenges of learning new things. You know some skills you’re really good at and some you’re not and you have to just overcome that and it’s of erasing that in a way.
Eli (05:29.326)
there’s always room to improve and you have to have you kind of have that mindset of
Again, the destination versus journey. Yeah, having the end product, you want that as fast as possible.
So you don’t have to do all the work. But when you do all the work and put into it, the more experimenting you do and trial and error, it makes it a little more worthwhile to reach the end goal. You know what mean?
Kenny (06:11.116)
I even think of it as a writing, from a writing perspective. I’m not really a creative writer, I would say, but the pain and suffering of staying up all night or even studying for a test and that blood, sweat and tears that go into it, not the best study method, but that was part of learning. That was part of doing something challenging.
Eli (06:33.62)
It makes that reward that much more rewarding when you put in that effort and challenge yourself. We’re supposed to be challenged every day. I think now that these tools are becoming more advanced and more accessible, and we’ve got these newcomers to the art field not realizing what was before that.
Kenny (07:01.742)
I’m also sure that across mediums making mistakes can really lead to much better outcomes or your own personal style. And so if you have this new generation entering the field of art using AI, they’re going to be lacking that. Maybe the personality that makes them stand out. Do you think that’s just an outside perspective or is there merit to
Eli (07:25.728)
And no, I agree. There’s like that’s how you create your own style and kind of signature in your art is when you go through these trial and errors of.
improving your skills and art and with any anything in life, you kind of learn how to do something your own way in and in this case, with art, you develop a style and you refine it and you can’t do that with the click of a button putting in a prompt. You can’t develop your own style and just
going to the goal of creating something.
If that makes no story in it, like, you know, putting your blood, sweat and tears into something that to me, that’s what kind of makes the art special. But if it’s just like a prompt and then a pretty image, you know, and say I didn’t even know it was AI generated. Usually we can tell are so pretty good at telling.
Kenny (08:19.854)
It’s like it lacks humanness.
Eli (08:49.226)
If a piece has some indications of, well, that’s AI art. Say there was a piece of art that really moved me. And then I found out later that it was AI generated. Like, that’s going to crush me. It hurts the soul to find out something like that.
Kenny (09:19.694)
This is a roll on question that was not on here, but do you think it’s more about the end product or is it about just, like it’s almost disrespectful in a way to art as an act?
Eli (09:30.958)
Absolutely. I think it’s almost disgraceful. I do think a big part of art...
is intention. And I don’t think people making AI art are intentionally trying to hurt artists, but they are and they’re.
kind of oblivious.
Kenny (10:04.13)
the more ethical side beyond just the individual person that’s using AI and selling themselves short. But from what I understand about generative AI is that at some point or another, it’s constantly pulling things off of the internet, be that data banks or...
Eli (10:22.688)
And these data banks are just increasing so much and there’s more being created out there.
Kenny (10:31.832)
So it’s taken us all from different places without consent to these different artists. Kind of gets weird with copyright and intellectual property and all of those different things.
Eli (10:44.462)
Even copywriting is such a gray area too. It’s not perfect.
That’s how bigger corporations can get away with it and maneuver their way into not compensating the artists that they steal from. Because I think most data sets are open source. The copywriting is such a gray area on it because they’re somehow able to get away with some
copyright protected word.
It’s interesting.
Kenny (11:30.008)
Hmm.
So guess my question for you is does that impact how you go about sharing your art online? Or is it just sort of that’s the way it is?
Eli (11:40.998)
Yes and no. Like when I sign up for Instagram or when I sign up for these apps and stuff, I’m literally consenting when I click the I agree with these terms and agreements. And so on that notion, I’ve kind of accepted my fate. They have the ability to use what I post and collect it.
which is kind of have regrets about it. Like, I shouldn’t have signed up for this, but it’s too late now. But even then, my artist style has been so messy and changed over the years. I don’t even have like a specific style.
And so. And I know style can’t be copyrighted, just how do you how do you copyright a style? So I can’t really have. Some grievances with. If my style gets stolen, like whatever and another. Another part of me. As. My artist friends are going to hate me for this, but.
It’s my honest opinion if-
If I could save someone from having to go through all those challenges and the effort that I put through blood, sweat and tears of where I’ve gotten to today with art.
Eli (13:26.498)
just have that skill and like a prompt.
I could have that skill.
caught to them in an instant, I don’t have to do any work.
Eli (13:46.254)
But that’s not without saying, I still do like teaching and there’s value in that for sure. It’s like, yes, I want you to make art. I love it as much as you do. Here’s all my experience as an artist. Take that and have fun with it.
Honestly, it wouldn’t impact me as much as I really think it would if an art piece that I did was stolen.
That’s kind of a weird thing to admit, but...
Kenny (14:29.592)
You’ve gotten out what you’ve wanted to get out of the process.
Eli (14:32.022)
Yeah, and it’s it’s such a personal thing. It’s too personal to take it because I don’t take art as like a as a business when it is it art is a business like Like it people make careers out of it and those careers are being replaced and
And there’s no more income to these artists because it’s being replaced by these new systems that are doing it all for them.
Kenny (15:10.094)
fully respective, you’re not monetarily driven to make art and that’s not why you make it. But then at least from the outside, it upsets me to think that people like yourself or, my cousins have shared their artists, they do animation as well, but sharing of like, it’s being taken and it’s not necessarily, it’s not about the person that’s using the end product, but it’s these tech companies are taking it.
And then using it to profit. But I think your take on the personal level, it’s just, it is what it is.
But it’s pretty crazy. I don’t know if you still want to talk about the protective software that you’d shared when we chatted last time. Kara and Artstation were the ones that you shared with me. Yeah. Are those things that you still use?
Eli (16:02.574)
I don’t use, I still have an Artstation account, but Artstation doesn’t have very good regulation over AI. most artists on there have protested and moved away to other apps that are against AI. And yeah, Kara was founded by
So she designed it for artists who are against AI scraping. And Kara uses some kind of thing that detects if AI has been used. It’s like, yeah, perfect. I’m an artist. I don’t want my data to be scraped. And I want to be somewhere with other artists who feel the same way.
So it’s kind of like a nice home for this rapidly escalating AI thing. now Instagram is people leaving Instagram because they’ve implemented a new AI update. And so they’re able to take as another example of big companies coming in and changing the
the user agreement with it and then like forcing this consent.
There’s another one called Artful. I haven’t looked too much into that one, but I think that one’s good as well.
Eli (17:49.23)
And it’s a little bit more community driven, I believe, where a car is just kind of... It’s really nicely designed. But it seems to not have as much of a chatting and messaging options. I haven’t used it before, but I feel like those are the kind of differences. But they both use the same...
kind of way of preventing.
Like AI... Slop.
Kenny (18:27.47)
I think that’s really cool. And I guess, I don’t know if I can answer this, but do you think there’s any room for AI in creative spaces?
Eli (18:36.174)
As long as you just got to be aware of what you’re using it for. Like again, with tool versus replacement, you want it to help aid you to a goal, not for the sake of an end result. It shouldn’t make the art for you. It should help you in little ways to make that art.
Kenny (19:04.744)
of expanding like the broader social costs where generative AI seems to overwrite the journey and teleport you straight to the destination. Do you think this is targeting artists directly or is it removing them from the equation? Because like you said, art is a business, it’s a big industry.
Eli (19:25.838)
Because we have to define what art is. everyone has their own kind of idea of what art is. And so, it’s affecting artists, that’s for sure. I wouldn’t say it’s targeting artists.
Kenny (19:48.43)
bit along the same lines, but do you see AI as a tool or a replacement for certain roles in the creative industry?
Eli (19:56.376)
Hopefully not both, but I do see it as both because I mean there are non artists out there who are using AI for a different purpose. Like they want to make money. want to so their intentions using it is to help their life. And I guess in practical ways.
Mostly financial reasons I could argue But for the artists We’re a little bit more cautious when it comes to like an authentic artists like artists who are against this whole AI thing and I Feel like They’re a little bit more conscientious about how they use and they did they won’t allow it to
be a replacement because they’re aware of the damages it’s doing.
The artist, it should be used as a tool. And I think it is being used as a tool for quote unquote AI artists. Their perspective is a little bit different. should say AI maker. Yeah, they...
they would accept it as a replacement for certain things as well as a tool that can be.
Eli (21:33.998)
Bit of an upper hand in this arms race between pro and anti-AI.
which is interesting to observe because who’s going to come out on top? And it seems like AI is like.
really rapidly growing.
Kenny (21:59.079)
That’s the scary part, right? Just because the more that it gets used, the better that it gets.
Eli (22:03.918)
It’s it’s a bit scary and like the we artists have to
find solutions to catch up with this and while keeping our ethical and moral integrity intact by not using it as a replacement. So what other ways can we combat this race?
Kenny (22:33.358)
I think what you’re saying, AI, it’s not necessarily a threat because there’s just an outright rejection. Yeah. But I kind of see the issue of more in the audio side of it, creating music and recording it. Obviously for big multi-team productions, like, okay, now you have a project manager instead of, I’m going to hire you and I’m going to hire you and you and you to each do your special creative piece of this project. Yeah. Well, I only need one of you and then I’m going to
do the rest with AI. You can be anti AI as a creator or an artist, but then you still get the short end of the stick if you, I don’t know, want to use your skills to pay rent. Right? So it’s not a threat maybe to the soul of your work, but it’s just kind of like a big middle finger to people that have
Eli (23:04.608)
Exactly.
Eli (23:18.348)
Exactly.
Kenny (23:32.96)
invested time and the work to work through all of these challenges and then AI gets to capitalize on them.
Eli (23:39.884)
Yeah, because it’s such an easy tool to use. Never mind the like prompting is a skill in itself, but like it’s. been on the lower end, you know. But yeah, it is. It does feel like a big middle finger.
Kenny (24:03.438)
There’s already a lot of stuff that’s against AI for various reasons, but I think that this is sort of the most problematic as far as what it says about us as people. It affects not just the individual user, but artists as a group of people that are preserving this way that we express ourselves as humans.
Eli (24:27.958)
Yeah, then what are we as humans? We need these human qualities to stay human. So it makes us feel alive. if everything is...
taken over and replaced and everything’s just perfect, then what would happen if we had everything we needed? If we had all the money in the world, everything’s automated, what would happen to the individual or even us as a human collective? What would we do if we were living a perfect life?
Kenny (25:13.56)
But not even perfect. Perfect, He like prescribed perfect robotic-
Eli (25:15.906)
Not
Eli (25:19.534)
Like a utopia. Yeah. Like if we were in a utopian.
Kenny (25:23.746)
Yeah, it would not be good. Well, look at how zoo animals become in their enclosure. Everything’s provided for them. They’re not happy. No. They’re not fulfilled. They’re not doing their purpose.
Eli (25:34.126)
There’s this, I forget where it was, this group of scientists who designed like a mouse utopia and gave the mice everything that they needed. They didn’t face any challenges or anything.
And then they started, they still ended up like having a war with each other. So would that still happen? Like in the human sense? If we were in a utopian world where
Our whole lives are run by robots.
Kenny (26:16.406)
I can’t imagine that. It would be so bad.
Eli (26:18.456)
Yeah. I want challenges. want to learn and improve and
Kenny (26:27.062)
beginning of this I was going to say I was going to watch Terminator 2. I’m not going to. Kind of moving on unless you had any other tidbits for sort of over innovating to the point of what’s the purpose.
Eli (26:40.75)
I guess in a weird talking about music, like AI and music, like, you know, expensive a symphony orchestra is. And the fact that now there’s, there’s these AI music apps that can generate, I mean, it’s still in production. it’s not perfect and you can kind of tell it’s, it’s AI, but.
Now you can make a symphony with a touch of a button or just like write in a style of a composer in the style of this and mix and match. Now don’t need to hire a whole orchestra. can just use this free app thing to make a big sound. That’s I guess that’s kind of like the scaling down.
multi-team production. Wow. There’s no
There’s no I in team.
Kenny (27:53.486)
That’s true. Yeah, I totally see what you’re saying. And also just how anybody can do that. I know nothing about music other than, oh my gosh, this song is great. Let’s put it on repeat. That’s kind of the extent of it. And to think that I could just go on do to do typing, typing, put in a prompt and somehow compose their speaking quotes in room, compose something.
Eli (27:59.192)
Yeah.
Kenny (28:22.454)
something with an orchestra that how many people are traditionally in an orchestra a record that would be performing
Eli (28:31.438)
Yeah, now you’re replacing at least like 30 to 50 people.
Kenny (28:36.268)
Mm-hmm. Plus everybody else that was there to facilitate the recording.
Eli (28:41.368)
Those musicians need to get paid. Yeah. They need money too.
Kenny (28:45.344)
Yeah, and we all enjoy listening and enjoy just other people’s creative creations. And then to somehow these tech companies are more entitled to the money than the people that are actually creating.
Eli (29:01.006)
that elitist mindset where can just do whatever you want. And then.
people below you get screwed. But because they’re at the top, it doesn’t affect them. So they just keep doing it. And now they’ve got their hands on this whole AI system and...
Eli (29:29.454)
collecting everyone’s artwork here and there without any repercussions.
think they could just get away with that?
Kenny (29:42.584)
think I would hope that most people would sort of, like with understanding how this works and how many people are sort of becoming out of a job or it’s coming down the pipeline. Because as you said, everything’s not perfect yet. It’s not all seamless, but doesn’t take a genius to predict that it’s going to get better. They’re not going to stop. The tech companies and the technology itself isn’t going to just stop now.
Eli (30:09.678)
As soon as they put it on pause, the other companies are going to beat them in the race. So they can’t stop. Yeah.
Kenny (30:22.574)
So I think most people would be sympathetic to that and understand that this technology or this innovation isn’t really worth it in that way. But at the same time, it’s this really novel, exciting technology that I don’t blame anybody for being intrigued by.
Eli (30:41.368)
Yeah, we do like to play around with new technology, but we’re not looking below the iceberg. We’re just seeing the top of it. We just got to be like, yeah, more aware of how we’re using the tools and just being smart with it. I think we’re all human enough to recognize.
what’s going on. So I have noticed any time an AI art
is released, people pick up on it so fast. at computer speed, we’re pretty good at it. So that’s kind good. That is good. It means we do have a fighting chance.
Kenny (31:37.218)
Or at least be able to differentiate and people can make a conscious choice supporting actual.
Eli (31:41.379)
up.
But still, like, still have fun with the tools.
Kenny (31:49.548)
I guess kind of in that same vein, but how does this affect the art community? Like, do you see people banding together, like sort of calling this out, or is it creating a divide?
Eli (32:01.25)
I’ve noticed, I’ve noticed there’s a, we’re definitely banding together. yeah, I’ve noticed a parallel of like, even though this, all this AI slop is being turned out so fast on the internet, people come together just as fast to combat it. we artists got to stick together and
You know, we’re all kind of holding hands and noticing all these things.
It makes us, it keeps us real. We should be angry about it. We should be, you know, fighting and we are doing that.
And the fact that we are doing that makes us more human. And so hopefully the whole AI art phase dies down a little bit and being accepted more. It’s kind of a bad thing and it does affect everyone. So hopefully we all can collectively agree that this kind of thing needs to slow down.
but yeah, that’s... I believe that’s gonna happen. I have to believe that. Am I a being? Like...
Eli (33:29.57)
I need that to happen. I want that.
Kenny (33:31.83)
that kind of the only way is AI itself isn’t going to go away, but how we react to AI art and what kind of precedents we collectively set.
Eli (33:40.002)
we become more human by noticing these things.
Kenny (33:47.374)
immobilizing and being collective with our actions and feeling connected.
Eli (33:50.894)
We are the resistance.
Kenny (33:54.35)
Um, because I love being a hater. It’s really great to be super critical and talk about things that maybe people aren’t aware of. So they haven’t had a chance to be critical, but I do like to sort of have more of a happy-ish ending to the podcast of resistance or moving forward. How can people support artists over robots?
Eli (34:18.156)
Yeah, think finding these apps that are against the AI thing. Trying to follow those ones if you’re really that concerned about your art being stolen on content.
Kenny (34:34.062)
I don’t know if you’re on Substack ever scrolling, but I know that at least on there, there’s lots of, say writers that use AI art to promote their writing because they’re not artists, but they don’t want to either pay somebody or pay to use like stock image banks and they get called out for it and people don’t want to read what they’re writing.
Eli (34:53.998)
hire an artist, do a commission, you know?
Artists reach out to those publishers, you know, or those authors. Reach out more.
Like we can all figure things out and if you’re trying to save money and you don’t want to hire an artist, there’s ways to work around that. Both can get the results they need. It really does just come down to reaching out and communicating and pay your fellow artists, pay your musicians.
Everyone’s tight on money these days. It’s it’s okay. We’ll get through it. We’ll find ways to help each other out, kind of thing.
promoting your friends and sharing with friends and family.
Kenny (36:03.222)
Any final thoughts about AI?
Eli (36:07.084)
Honestly, we’re gonna be okay.
Again, I have to believe it. And I do actually believe it because I am seeing people are being more aware and cautious about it, except for the bigger companies and elite.
Hopefully they’ll simmer it down, but yeah, I have noticed that.
Eli (36:38.09)
or getting the upper hand, I would say, in the art community. We’ve got really good tools to fight against it.
Kenny (36:49.804)
And I will say too, that I would have no idea about this topic if it wasn’t for people in our community sharing this information and doing these campaigns. There was people way before really jumping on this topic and going against these bigger corporations.
Eli (37:07.31)
It’s so messy. Like the further you go up in like the tier of the tiers of like the individual to small teams to bigger corporations and then globally It’s a bit messy way up there but in terms of the individual and humanity
Our own humanity, our issues are a little bit smaller than we think. I mean, they are big issues for us. It does impact us and affect us, but on the smaller scale, I think we’re fighting pretty good. It’s a lot clearer on the lower tiers than like,
the messy global...
AI use, how they’re dealing with it.
which is the scarier thing, we should be concerned about it, but...
Eli (38:23.894)
as we artists and musicians and even pro-AI.
Eli (38:37.794)
we can handle things.
I am Satanet.
Kenny (38:46.766)
My favorite thing to ask at the end of my episodes is what is your message for the world? It’s your soapbox. Anything goes.
Eli (38:56.524)
Watch more movies. Terminator 2.
Keep creating art. No matter what, AI won’t take away your love for art.
keep doing that and creating.
having fun, you know?
keep your human spirit alive by being creative. You’re all doing great out there. GET OUT!
Kenny (39:29.272)
Thank you Eli, it’s good to talk about these feelings as we move through the phases of this new technology. You can find some of Eli’s creations in the description below or on Spotify at f-a-x-a-n-u-d-u. And you can hear and read more from me at Kenny C402 on Substack.
Thanks for listening, keep sleuthing.
